From Grunt Work to Luxury GC

Brady Fenn shares how Fenn Rogers went from “tearing up floors” to a trusted luxury custom home builder in the Phoenix area by partnering with the right designers/architects and bidding to the actual spec, not the plan assumptions. He shares hard-won lessons on fixing budget misses, building a dependable subs bench, and using clear expectations and communication to keep clients confident through an imperfect, first-time build.

https://www.fennrogers.com

Show Notes: 
00:00 Welcome + what Fenn Rogers builds
02:26 Brady’s path: from tearing up floors to partner
11:18 Designers & architects: moving upmarket the right way
17:08 Budget misses → pivot to spec-driven estimating
30:18 “Chuck in a truck” vs. building a pro subs bench
37:18 Why process feels hard in custom — the imperfect reality
43:13 Set expectations, over-communicate, earn trust
46:30 Closing thoughts & thanks

Find Our Hosts:
Reece Barnes
Matt Calvano

Podcast Produced By:
Motif Media

Transcript

0:00

Welcome to builders budgets and beers. I'm Rhys Barnes and I started this podcast to have real conversations about money in the building industry, the wins, the mistakes and everything in between. I believe builders deserve to feel confident about their finances, and that starts by hearing from others who've been through it too. This industry can be slow to change, but the right stories and the right tools can make profitability feel possible. Let's get into it. All right. Brady, mics are hot. Let's go. We're rocking and rolling. Um, appreciate you coming on, dude. If you listen to the podcast, you know that I always like to give the listeners just a little intro to the guest that's on. So if you would go ahead and tell them who, who Brady fan is, and what Fen Rogers is all about. Yeah, so Brady Finn partner with here at Fen Rogers custom homes. My partner is Jeff Rogers. He has been in the business for probably 4045, years, and I've been with him for coming up on 11 years now. Started working with him back in 2014 and I was a just laborer. Basically at that time, it was just him. He was thinking he wanted to bring somebody else on, and I was looking for work. I had met him through church, and yeah, asked him if he needed help. And sure enough, and so my first job with him was tearing up wood floor on a remodel that we were doing, just great labor, yeah, kind of just got me in at the bottom floor and literally tearing up floors, and just kind of worked my way up till we got to the point where I could start managing projects. And then eventually he and I became partners. A couple years ago, changed the name to Fen Rogers custom homes. And, yeah, eventually he'll retire, but definitely not trying to push him out by any means. Want him to stay on as long as he can. So, yeah, totally. But we're custom home builders in here in the Phoenix area, Arizona. Small company we build. You do about six to 10 projects a year. And, yeah, love it. It's great stuff, dude. That's great. That's great. Okay, so we're, I mean, we're talking, okay, did you start in construction? 2014, kind of, so I grew up in construction. My dad's a home builder in a small, small town in southern Arizona, so kind of grew up with him summers, you know, again, just kind of grunt labor. We did our own concrete and framing, so it was a lot of that type of stuff. And then in 2013 I was starting to go to school for construction management. I did an internship with a big commercial contractor on a big project in Tempe, actually, at ASU, at Arizona State University, cool and kind of hated it, just the the speed, the intensity, the it just was cutthroat. I mean, I just was like, Man, this is just not I really like personal relationships. I like collaboration, and it's just all seemed like it was numbers and stress and just intense, and didn't love it, so had a little bit of experience there. But yeah, to answer your question, I've been, I've been around construction my whole life. Got it. And the reason I asked is because, excuse me, the reason I asked was like, dude, 2014 2025, as a laborer to partner in a very respected home building outfit and one of the hottest markets in the United States is pretty insane, I guess. Like, how did you get the nod with Jeff to like, get this opportunity, and then for him to be like, Yeah, I want to partner with you. Brady. Like, let's do this. Yeah. You know, I think when I started, he, he was about 60, so he actually, he's 70 now, so at the time, I think he saw the writing on the wall. He Okay, eventually I want someone to succeed me, you know, maybe buy me out, take this over. This type of business is hard to just sell outright, you know. And so I think he saw that a little bit as his succession plan. We had a little bit of a relationship, like I said, through church. And so there was kind of some mutual interest there. And I saw that too. I didn't necessarily, at the time, I didn't realize what it could be, or what it could look like. But, you know, I saw it as an opportunity. At the time, it was like, yeah, maybe I could be a project manager, you know, Superintendent for him, or something. So I think a couple years in, we realized, okay, like, yeah, this could, this could work out now, that being said, there were times where you. Things, I was maybe a little impatient. Things weren't moving as fast as I'd like to with ownership or things like that. So there actually was a period of time where I actually went worked for another company for a couple of months, and realized the grass wasn't greener on the other side. You know, luckily, called Jeff up and he took me back. And it was kind of a good, it was a good experience, I think, for both of us, just to kind of realize that, hey, you know, this is, this is something good we have here. We work together well. So then at that point, I was kind of like, committed, okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna kind of stay this out, you know, eventually take over, and we got to the point where, once we became 5050, partners, I think it was really good security for me. Like, okay, I'm in. This is what I want to do. I'm staying here. And then, yeah, now we're to the point where he's talking about retirement, and I have another, another partner that, since joined us, that's going to essentially buy him out, and he and I are going to move forward, and Jeff will keep working a little bit as long as he can. But he's, he's looking to take a step back here. You know, early 2026, dude. That's great. That's great. I mean, it's just like, generally, it sounds like it was built on, like, trust and the opportunity came from, like, just consistent delivery. Honestly, that's what I'm picking up on. Yeah, 100% I mean, Jeff has been a huge mentor for me. He's been patient with me. He's given me all the responsibility and freedom that I can handle to really kind of let me grow he's, he's very, yeah, it's just kind of the type of person he is as a business owner, very trusting, very much, like, hey, you know, you do your job. I'm not going to micromanage you. Yeah, honestly, it's been, it's been awesome. Couldn't ask for a better, better situation, for sure, dude, that's great. That's great. You had mentioned, like, once you and Jeff became 5050 partners in the business, that was kind of the like, okay, like, I'm locked in. Like, this is the opportunity. This is what I'm going to commit my life to, for lack of a better term. Like, what about that 5050 really? Like, gave you that eye opening moment. So it really became, it was huge when I was having meetings with either potential clients or architects or designers or places that the work was going to come from. So Jeff kind of gave me that ability, you know, to do that. He was kind of, I think, comfortable and set, you know, where he was, you know. But I was kind of younger, ambitious, trying to, like, Hey, how can we drum up new business? How can we make new contacts? How can we get to another level, to the type of homes that we're going to build? And so I was doing a lot of work, just meeting with people and trying to drum up business. And when the company was Jeff Rogers, custom homes, and I was a either project manager, essentially was my title. It just was kind of hard. It didn't necessarily carry a lot of weight when I was in these meetings or trying to drum up business. And so I think once, once we changed the name to Finn Rogers, and I could say, hey, yeah, I'm Brady Fenn. I'm the owner. I'm, you know, I'm the partner in the company. Started to build a reputation, kind of a little bit in the community with people that, hey, this is, he's, he's going to be the one to kind of take over the company. It just gave me a little bit more of a presence and a little bit more validity in those meetings, you know, that allowed us to, you know, allowed me to get, try to land jobs and land business that, you know, that I was trying to get totally, it was just skin in the game, really, yeah, there was, like, a confidence lift, skin in the game, like, there was, there was, I think that's, I think that's probably valid for, like, a lot of people out here. It's like, when you have these people, like running the projects and doing these things, like when you do, when you throw someone who shows promise, or, you know, you can, you can see, there's a, there's a win, win opportunity there. Jeff's trying to retire, like, create a succession plan. Brandy is trying to, like, get more involved with the side of the business. You can unlock a lot of opportunity. Yeah, it, it was good. It kind of, I mean, I feel like it's tough because part of it was a little, like, ego driven of like, hey, I want my name on the building. I want my name on the company, you know. And so part of me is like, Oh, does that really matter? Is that that big of a deal? But yeah, it kind of does a little bit. I think it, it definitely has helped. Again, when I'm trying to meet with people that are going to be sending me jobs or meet with clients, it instills confidence in them. But it's been really cool, because I think with our company, having Jeff involved is has been huge, because it's like, okay, he's. Experienced. He's he's seen everything he's been around. You know, I think for clients, they see, okay, got Brady, who's a little bit more young and ambitious, but then you have Jeff, who's this good, you know, experienced veteran, you know, knows what he's doing. It just It instills confidence. Instills trust. I believe in our clients, beautiful. I love it. What would you say that you brought to the business that Jeff didn't have and vice versa for each other? Yeah, I think couple of things Jeff, Jeff had been doing, he started kind of on the real estate side of things in the early 2000 90s and 2000s and then got into building spec homes. And then that turned into building custom homes. I think when he was kind of establishing himself as a builder, the working with interior designers was more of a pain than it was like helpful to the job, you know, so he had a little bit of this negative attitude towards working with designers. It was kind of like, man, they're just going to make things more difficult, or they're going to slow up the process. There's going to be changes or so, I think that was something that I was able to bring in to the company, is trying to establish relationships with these people that were essentially going to give us better quality jobs, higher quality jobs. So I think establishing some of those relationships really has put us in another level of, you know, the caliber of homes that were, we're building and and he has since, you know, totally seen the light. I mean, it's been years where, since that, you know, since he had that mindset. So, you know, it's very much. Yeah, we love working with interior designers and the right architects, because that just means we're going to be working with the right clients. Totally the way. Okay, so let me make sure. So Jeff was hesitant on working with these people, because he was like, it would slow you down. Did I hear that? Right? Yeah, it was kind of, again, it's like an old school mentality a little bit. And I want to be just like, I can do it. He does not think this way anymore. So, yeah, yeah, sure. But yeah, just very much of like, you know, because it was, it was, you know, technology was different back then, and just the organization, you know, it was like, these designers were more, at least the ones that he had worked with, you know, they were just people who were going to come meet, on site, make decisions, but then they were going to be making changes. They weren't going to have answers. You know, that was kind of his experience. And so, yeah, he was pretty much, no, we don't need them. We can. We can just point them to our vendors. They can go pick up stuff themselves, and we can just make the decisions help them and not involve somebody else, for sure. And this, like, just Yeah, again to like, just echo you being clear about this is not a knock, yeah. I think this is, it's good to talk about. And it's interesting to hear that. I mean, this was what, five years ago, 10 years ago, probably, like, 767, years ago. I think, yeah, he, like, I said he's totally on board the last probably, yeah, six, six or so years. I mean, with Yep, no, we, these are our best jobs come through these people and so, yeah, I think 100% I think the point that I'm seeing here, and I think that we could, like, dig into a little bit more, is, like, just generally resistance to change and and, like, an overall openness that is missing in this sector, right? Just construction general and it, I don't think that construction would be what it is if you didn't have guys and gals that are running this stuff that are saying, like, we can do it. We can do it better. Like, it's like, very much. Like, take it on ourselves to do it, and we can do it the right way, and we can grind ourselves into the freaking ground, and we can get this done. And we don't need all these other people, but I also, like I hear just time and time again, the same story of whether it's the single owner or a partner or a business has been really successful for 510, 15 years, not being open to these types of concepts, and then all of a sudden they catch a sniff of success by doing something a little bit different. And they're just like, it changes the direction and trajectory of their business. Like it truly took, it took someone who was a laborer, Brady fan, to come in and show promise, right, manage projects, get the job done, and then all of a sudden you're like, Dude, I think we can build some relationships with these people, and whether it was intentional in the sense of, like, winning better work or not, it happened. And if it hadn't been for you Rogers construction or whatever it was before you came, yeah? Jeff, Rogers Custom Homes, yeah, yeah, would have been a totally different game. It'd be a totally different game. But, I mean, like you were saying it doesn't. Certainly mean that it would not be successful. It just would be a different it's just different, you know, totally. It's just a different level, a different type of home or product, you know, that was being presented and but not necessarily, I wouldn't say it's inferior by any means, you know, so, but yeah, it's just, and there's, there's, there were some growing pains that came along with that, you know, trying to figure out the transition between the difference okay. Like, yes, we got these higher caliber jobs, but we can't just keep doing things the same way we've been doing at a lower price point. It's just not going to it's not going to work, you know. So there are some experiences there, for sure? What were some of those things like, generally, like, what stands out to you? So, like, a lot of it was on the financial side, which, you know, adaptive for sure, but making sure that our budgets were up to par with the design that was being presented. So like, there were some projects early on where we got these, this interior design packets, you know, along with this project. And we kind of like, okay, this is normally, we budget this for Trim Carpentry, we budget this for paint, we budget this for cabinets, whatever. And then we get into the design and find out, Oh, man, these budgets are way off, you know, this design is way more detailed, and the client spent good money on this design, and they're counting on us. Hey, you know, we gave you this design, you should have priced it per the design. So there, there was a few jobs where we kind of did it just, you know, how we always did, and putting the budget together without really digging into the specifications that were presented to us, and it, it cost us. I mean, we were, we were kind of in trouble that made for, you know, lost money on our end, plus or hard conversations with the clients. And, hey, we just, we didn't budget enough for this, you know. And that was we've, we've definitely had those. I me personally, I've had those hard conversations and they're not fun. Yeah, well, I can't imagine, um, I think, like, generally, what was the pivot? Because, I mean, you guys were budgeting. You were budget. You just didn't take into consideration, like, the the, like, the bigger scope, or the quality and product, or, like, like, just the amount like so like cabinetry, for example. Like when you get interior design done and they specify all the door styles, the stain, the hardware, the amount of cabinets, you know, so it could be completely different or just way more intense than what is on your architectural plans. You know, you can look at your architectural plans just from a 2d Okay, yeah, there's base cabinets here, upper cabinets here, we kind of would look at it from a square footage. And also, like, maybe we're using a semi custom cabinet shop, or that's what we're used to. And then we get this design done that our semi cabinet guy can't even do, you know, like, he can't do it. And so that then puts us to a different level of cabinet company that we need to use that's going to be more expensive because it's 100% custom cabinets. And so that's, like, kind of an example, or like, you know, Trim Carpentry is another thing we actually self perform Trim Carpentry. And so when we looked at that, it was, you know, on the plans, okay, yeah, this is the square footage. We'll budget this amount, you know, for it. But then you get into the interior design, and there's specifications in every single room, you know, there's so many different things that were specified in the interior design that we just didn't account for. And so those are kind of a couple examples of things that were missed on our end when we were putting these budgets together. Totally, totally, no. I think, I mean, that's, that's kind of how the story goes, right? Yeah. I have, I have, so I have, like, two questions. The first being, how did you choose to, like, what was interesting enough for you guys to go? We'll call it up market or into these, like, higher quality products. And then the second, which I think we could answer more immediately, is like, how did you guys decide to bring self performed carpentry, finished carpentry? And as so the the self performing the Trim Carpentry was pre existing, beaving, before my time, before with Jeff. So it was this crew of guys that he had. They're amazing. They do so much for us. I mean, honestly, they we wouldn't be where we are without these guys. They just do so much for us. So Jeff had, I'm not sure exactly where, how he had first met them, but he was able to keep them busy through, you know, the recession, the crash, oh 809, all of that by doing remodels, here and there, just kind of whatever he could to keep them busy. And then we've just always. Companies use them, since we have this crew of guys that they do, they do all of our doors and trims. They build closets, any type of Trim Carpentry. But then on remodels that we do, they'll do some of the demo, some of the framing. You know, they just do so much for us. So that's where that started. It's just kind of been a part of our business ever since I've been around got it so they've just asked valuable for us. Totally I asked because, like, that's the topic that gets brought up on the podcast quite often, is like the strategic advantage as a builder to bring in other revenue streams or offerings, right? Some could call it like a vertical integration, right? Yeah. Like, we bring in self performing Trim Carpentry, carpentry. We bring in, like, we'll buy our own equipment, and then we'll lease it to ourselves to use, or we'll bring in a framing crew, or whatever, like, whatever. And I didn't know if your guys's decision making was along that wavelength, or if it sounds like it was just more like happenstance. No, yeah, more happenstance and more just like for better quality project from both management and just quality of work. So we since we're cost plus we actually don't, I mean, this is probably something we should look into. And you know, if you know, if you look into our finances, this is where it's like, if you were looking at it from a strictly financial point of view, we should be profiting more on them, but we just charge. We just put their cost in as a line item, and then our, you know, our percentage gets added to that because we're cost plus on our contracts. So it's definitely not a financial gain. For us. I mean, I guess it could be technically, but not really. That's not the reasoning. It's like a bread and butter money maker, like, no, what is the thinking behind that? Like, and it's more so like, when you say, like, we probably could or should be doing that, but you decide to do it, bring it in basically a cost like, what's the business decision making around that? I think it just kind of, it allows us to be in the price point that we're at, maybe a little bit it's a huge line item, you know, on the overall cost of the project. But, yeah, and it's just not something where we I think it's maybe would lead to a hard conversation with clients. If they see that and they're like, Oh, well, you're making you're charging me cost plus, but you're also making money on this line item, they might feel like they're being double billed a little bit, sure, sure. So just kind of, yeah, yeah. I think that's the nature of it. We don't necessarily want to get too greedy and feel like we have to collect every dollar on project, but, I mean, it really is just more of a they do such good work, we feel like they're a representation of us and the work that we do. So that's that's more of the decision behind it, dude. Value can be driven in a variety of ways, and it can be collected on in a variety of ways, right? Like, I don't necessarily know if I have a strong opinion one way or the other. I mean, I certainly talk to builders that are like, yeah, like, you should be like, standing up these different businesses and using them as the general contractor and making your markup margin on all of these people. But I think like, also, like, to your point, is like, maybe it could also just be viewed as more of, like, a competitive edge, right? It's like, don't bite the hand that feeds you in this situation, more of a like, these are reputable guys that we can rely on that are doing killer work regularly. Like, it's not like we're losing money on them. And this is, like a strategic angle that we can take to win these jobs and be competitive in the market 100% and I mean, and honestly, they, they aren't cheap. I mean, they're expensive what we pay them, you know, but they're very qualified, and so if we were to add a markup on top of what they're already charging, it does get kind of pricey, you know, a little spicy, yeah, yeah. So cool. Um, okay, so No, that makes a ton of sense. Um, I think the other question was, is, like, how did you decide to go into more again, I'm gonna call it up market, but we'll just call it, like a more luxury product. And I will preface the reason I'm asking is because I think, like my world particularly, is, like, we work with, like, a lot of really high end luxury home builders almost so much in the sense that it's like, it becomes like the normal, right? It's no different than like, being on like social media, right? And you're in your own little echo chamber, and you see the same shit over and over, becomes normal. Like, that's the expectation. But you do, you kind of forget about the builder out there and who, like, frankly, I appreciate the hell out of we just. Lisa episode, but it's with a builder down in Tupelo, Mississippi, and he's building a 250,000 to $400,000 price point home. Obviously, that's like what the market can yield. Sure, there's probably bigger homes being built. But like, he's very adamant about building that product. For his reason, I'm curious what, and this is me assuming that, like, the Jeff Rogers custom home product was, like, significantly, you know, maybe not lesser in quality, but and, like, luxury than what you guys are doing now. How did you guys decide to step up into the market? What was the driver? Yeah, so I'll answer that first, that last part. So the it was, it wasn't that Jeff wasn't doing luxury products, because he was, but they were, it was more of like it'd be a one off here or there, and then there'd be a lower market that was more of like the normal, I guess. And so I don't definitely, don't want to make it seem like he wasn't in this. I think even pre crash, pre recession, he was doing very high end luxury spec homes, and then the market just changed. And I think that just changed, shifted his mindset so So to answer the question, a couple of things. I think the market was going that way. You know, you think back to 2014 1516, like it was trending upwards. And then a big part of it for me was it was at that time, 2014 I became good friends with Brad Levitt from aft. So I've started seeing he and I were just, you know, playing basketball together. And I started seeing who won, who won, who won? Oh, play ball. Oh, man, put me on the spot. Yeah, let's do honesty is the best policy. It's pretty even back then, I was in really good basketball shape, so I think I had the edge back then. Yeah, the reason is he's, he's about 10 years older than me, and he's held it to where I feel like we're fairly even. Brad's a better shooter than I am. I'll give him that for sure. So, and unfortunately, Brad usually beats me on the golf course right now too, so it's kind of got the edge a little bit. But anyway, so I started seeing that's, that's really when he got into social media too, and posting just these quality, these really cool projects, and totally, that's when, you know, social media was starting to grow a little bit, and, you know, you're seeing things, and I was wanting to do that. And I'm just like, man, some of these projects we're doing, I don't really want to post them, you know, they're not very interested in that. Great, you know. And then so it was talking with him a lot, and he's like, man, you gotta start. You gotta work with interior designers. Like, that's the difference. Like, that's who you got to get in with her. You got to get in with the right architects, like, you can do. And that was kind of my thing too, is like I felt like we we had the right guys, or we had the right team in place to do the quality of of projects that I wanted to but we just weren't getting the clients. We just weren't getting the jobs that would allow us to do that. So that's really what it was. It was kind of just social media and just, you know, just me personally wanting to do projects that I personally would like. And I definitely was leaning more that way of these, just higher quality luxury products. Definitely was not fitting for me. You know, I grew up in a town of southern Arizona with 5000 people and just, you know, just not, it's not like I grew up around it by any means, but I don't know, just kind of gravitated towards it, liked it. And then I think another part of it was to like higher budgets, higher quality projects allowed us to work with higher quality vendors and subcontractors too. So I just sure all around just wanted a better project, and not just so much grinding and doing it for as cheap as possible, because then those those guys that you have to work with to do that, it's just not it's not enjoyable. I mean, I can makes all the sense in the world, I think, like the the self awareness and that kind of like inflection point of creating a product that, just to be candid, you weren't super stoked to broadcast or, like, put your name on. Like, Dude, I think that's a hell of a takeaway, which, again, like, I think even going back to this guy in Tupelo, is like, you don't like all the pride doesn't have to be in the finishes or the luxury, right? Like you listen, you listen to you listen the episode with the builder in Tupelo, and you're like, damn. Like, this guy's hyper passionate about building an entry level home for individuals, first time home buyers, people that. Were in, you know, like, trailers, mobile homes, stuff like that, that never thought that they could get into a custom home or a new built home, right? But I think that, like, inflection point for you is interesting, that it does, like, you have to, you have to follow your truth, right? And like, really be aware of who you are to say, am I going into this for the right reasons? And like, frankly, like, what you guys are doing at Fen Rogers, like, I don't know how you could put up a product like that and not be in it for the right reason, focusing on the vendor and subcontract relation, focusing on the client experience. And that's kind of my next question is, like, it's pretty assumptive as to, like, the chuck in the truck, you know, like, guy with his name on the side of the truck, doing everything for as cheap as possible, working with those subs and vendors as a grind. What about it as a grind? Like? Is it disorganization? Is it the the quality of work? Is it having to redo work? Is it like, what is all the what is it that really, just like drives at that market? Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think that's it. I think it's the maybe lack of organization, or, you know, them, they may be a master at their trade that they're doing, but if they're trying to run the business to, you know, they're just spread too thin. They're not able to do it. And so, like the guys that we work with, we still do work with a lot of owner operator type subs, but they also have good guys in place that are able to do a good job. You know, kind of a good measure for us is like, do I feel comfortable with this person meeting with my client without me being there? Like, am I? Are they the type that I would feel comfortable where, if they were to run into each other, if they would have a meeting, I would feel confident know that they would be, you know, a good representation of me and my company, and would be able to hold their own. And so I honestly can say that about pretty much all of our subs and vendors that we work with, like and we do that a lot, we have a lot of trust in our guys, and, you know, being able to do that and have meetings, have discussions. Now, obviously we need to know all the informations that's being discussed. But if a client were to just show up on a job site unannounced, and they're talking to my cabinet guy, or my painter or whoever, I'd feel good with them with that interaction, that it would instill confidence in the client. So, but, yeah, I think just, you know, organization being able to hire, you know, for these subcontractors, having enough, you know, of a fee or a budget for what they do, to be able to hire good quality people to work with, and then the materials too, just working with higher quality materials is another, you know, big, another part of it, for sure, totally, totally, um, when it comes to, and you talked a little bit about, like, the progression of, and again, it sounds like Jeff was, like, running like, as a very, like, high quality business before, but for the builders that are out there that are, like, probably in that, in that position to where they're a remodeler trying to get into new construction, or they're in new construction, but they're trying to get into more of the luxury space. You're talking about budget, you're talking about getting involved with interior designers, architects, you're talking about all that stuff. Is there anything from a business standpoint that you would urge them to consider before stepping up into landing a client with more budget that allows you to get involved with better subs and better material. Who, yeah, I think just having your process as dialed in as best you can, you know, I talked about, kind of our pains that we went through that was more on the front end, the budgeting and the estimating side. So, so really like digging into all the specifics and details of plans and everything like that. So I think on the front end, as much as you can be better prepared that way, but then I mean after that, it kind of is just going to take, take a little bit of trial and error, you know, like jumping into it ideally, if the perfect situation is, if you could do a spec home where you're, you know, you don't have a client, you're able to, whether you're partner with an investor or however it's going to work. But get into that and build the level that you want to be your bread and butter. You know, build to that level that you want, you're wanting to get to on a custom home side. I mean, that would be ideal, but that's hard. I mean, it's it's risky. You got to find the right deal, and you got to be a little bold and try to take that chance. So that's a little bit of what we've done, what we did, but we also did some small remodels that we wouldn't normally do, but, you know, there's been a handful of jobs that we've done where it's like, hey, just this is just a little kitchen remodel, or it's a bathroom remodel, and they want to paint their house, but they're spending, you know, three quarters of million dollars on furniture with the design. So the designer, like, really wants to get the job, but they want to have the right contractor to do this little bit of work for them. We've done that, and that's established relationship with designers that they're like, hey, you know, thank you for doing that. It allows us to get our foot in the door to do a project with them, and then so when they get a new build or a bigger project that comes their way, we already have a little bit of a relationship there. Totally, totally no. And I think that's like, you know, it's, I think you talk about specking a house, right? And that, for sure, is risk, and there's so much that goes into it. We did, yeah, I'm gonna sneeze. Bless you damn. Did I blow your ears out on that one? Or not, missed the mic. You're good. You missed it, yeah, you're good. All right, cool, um, you know, we all we want to sneeze sometimes, yeah, sometimes just gonna sneeze, you know? Um, no, I think. But in terms of, like, taking that risk on a spec house, taking that smaller job with the interior designer, it all like, again, goes back into relationships. It take it goes back into building a reputation, like, I get it one thread that I want to go into which, again, like my background, like when I was at builder trend, like, ran their onsite consulting service, one of our customer success managers over here, Danny Martinez, he was doing the consulting. I mean, that was like, truly a standard operating procedure based business like you pay builder trend they go out, they learn their business, they establish processes and procedures. Did you do one of those? By the way? Is that how we met? Or did we meet through adaptive? I can't remember. We met through adaptive. Yeah, because are you another trend guy? Are you not a builder trend guy? Or kind of, maybe you're on question. We are on the fence. Builder trend is amazing. I hopefully don't want to say anything bad about builder trend. We just have not ever really fully, like committed to it, for it to be valuable for us. So okay, and it just kind of goes with the way we run our business, basically. So yeah, yeah, understood, understand. And that wasn't, that wasn't, that wasn't the point here. The point here. I opened that door trying to take a shot at builder channel. Yeah, no, no, I'm gonna close that door real quick here. So when it comes to standard operating procedures, processes, that's what you had mentioned, is like, have your processes dialed like you talked about estimating and budgeting. I talked to a lot of builders about process. Why is it so hard? Like, why? Why is it such a point of conversation? And why is it it's so simple, but it's like, what is the challenge of it? Because we're building, we're building custom homes, and it's, you're building something for the first time. And so as soon as you set a schedule or a process, it's gonna change. You know, you're just like, it's just, there's such an imperfect nature to what we're doing. If it was, if you were manufacturing a car or, you know, I have that conversation with clients all the time, like, hey, this isn't, this isn't the same as buying a new car off the lot. You know, that's all you know, machines and processes. It goes through so many checks and balances and everything. You know, this is the first time this house has ever been built. This is the first time, and first you know you're going to live in it, and there's going to be things that you're going to discover from living there that we just, you know, we can't completely test it out before we hand it over to so I think that's just part of it. I mean, part of it is just stubbornness, too, like of, you know, kind of, you got some old dogs in the construction industry that it's hard to teach new tricks to, and also, but, but, yeah, I think just the it's just chaos, and we kind of just get used to, like, figuring it out as you go, you know, it's like, well, what's the point of putting schedule together? Because the moment, the second we finish the schedule, it's going to get changed. Everything's going to get pushed back and pushed back. And it's just like, frustrating. You feel like you're failing because you're not sticking to the schedule, where really it's like, well, maybe that just is the way it is. So now that being said, I'm definitely not saying not to do schedules and have systems and everything. It's kind of you have to find that balance between trying to create those things but not beating yourself up when you're not sticking to them. Okay, so it's more so well. And that's kind of like where, after hearing that, and just like, generally having an idea of how this stuff works. Yeah, is, like, it's probably, don't get hung up on the I'm not gonna say the detail. How do you phrase this point being is, like, it's not that the schedule is moving. It's like, what is the process that is in place to keep the big stuff updated or like, what's the big underlying concept that we're trying to systematize? Is that fair? Am I articulating that? What do you think? Yeah, yeah, for sure. It's like, I think for I mean, maybe a simpler way to look at it is like, progress is kind of the main. Thing that you're wanting to be your process, if that makes sense. Like, okay, if, if so. Like, for example, like, if we have guys working every day on a job, there's multiple guys there, they are working every day, but they're a week behind a so called schedule that we have put together. Like, how can you get upset with that? Like, is that a failure? Are you behind schedule? Or is that just how long it takes? You know? Like, sure. So I think that for us, like, and especially in the luxury, like, the quality luxury custom home, you know, it's not about sticking to a scheduler, like building as fast as you can. I mean, yes, you do want to do that without sacrificing quality, because that's how you can be most profitable. But it's more so. Just about making sure there's progress, it's moving along. It's not stagnant. You know, there's not nobody at you know, no one's working. That's That's what's frustrating is if you know you're not organized well enough to where you didn't plan ahead, and then you have a couple of weeks where nothing is happening at the job. I mean, that's, that's what, that's not good, for sure. That's the problem. That's the problem. So I think that's a pretty solid takeaway. Is, like, build the process around progress, and know that, like, to your point. Like, just to the to the custom nature for the builders out there that are building again, never building the same floor plan twice. Everything's custom. Like, it's probably more so important that you are building the process around progressing through the build as best as you know. But then, like, how reasonable is it to say that if we scheduled in X number of weeks or days for tile or whatever on this type of project, are you to go back and be like we have a process in place to run a post mortem on all of our projects and understand the slippage on our schedules, and know that if we have projects like this, we document it here, we reflect back in our pre con and develop from there. Is that ridiculous, um, it is to me. So I know there's other people, there's other builders, and I honestly, I look up to people that are more wired that way. I'm just not wired that way, like that is just not my and honestly, I wish I was. I am envious of people who think that way. They're able to analyze data and then take that and then use it and be like, Okay, this, this project was this many square feet, and it took the tile guys X number of, you know, days to do it. So then, if we were to take that and put it into calculate, into this house, like I just, it's just not my I just do not think that way. That is just not me. So I and I've accepted that. So, yeah, um, so no, it's not crazy to think. And I do think there's people, I mean, you see it a lot in sports, you know, there's a lot of analytics are a huge thing in totally all the different sports. And there's, there's people who get fixated on it, stuck on it, and then there's other people who just go off more, off of feel and just, hey, this, this should be, you know. So I think the biggest thing for me, though, with the way that we're wired is we make up, maybe we make up for lack of like, scheduling or analytics or data that side of things by communication with our clients and setting correct expectations so sure, communicating and doing business in a way to where they trust us and they just aren't second guessing or aren't questioning, hey, you know, is this how it should be done? They feel that, if they feel that they trust us, I'm setting the right expectation. Hey, you know, this is we think the House is going to take 15 to 18 months to build, you know? And we're staying on track within that then, then everything is okay. It's all just about that expectation that's been a big thing I've been thinking of probably the last the last year or two, is just any any headaches or frustrations or any negativity with clients, is all because the right expectation was not set like expectations are not being met. And so if we can do a better job at setting that meeting that expectation, keeping them in the loop, having hard conversations as soon as possible, not letting them linger then, then that just allows for that much better of a project. For us, it allows us to not be as dialed in on some of the schedules and systems and stuff like that. I think that's fair. If this just if business in general was like, this is the right way to do it. Uh, the perfect businesses in the world would exist, and that's just not a thing. Yeah. So yeah, I think there's room for, uh, for people to get I think. And that was kind of a part of, like, your commentary was like, give yourself some grace, basically, like, yeah, go ahead. No, no. I just was agreeing with you. That's all, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, give yourself some grace. Understand, it's a fluid motion, like you're building motion. Like, you're building. You're building. Another one of our guests from Austin made the comment about, like, for God's sakes, like, you show up to a job site and you look at the people that are building your house, that's one thing, but then you remember that you're building it outside in the elements. Like, like, truthfully, anything can go wrong, dude, you gotta, like, just control the things that you can control and focus on. I think that's just, I mean, it all goes into your very first meeting with your clients and, like, setting them up to, like, honestly, tell, hey, this is gonna suck for the next couple of years. Like, you're gonna hate this. I always tell clients, like, the funny thing is, is, like, you know, you finish building a house, you go through the whole process, the architecture, the interior design, you spend millions of dollars you get there, and then you finish, and then you look back, you you know, everything that you would do differently the next time, but you'll never do it again, because it was such a painful process. So it just is the conundrum of it, you know, like and it granted. There, we've had repeat clients. There's people who are who enjoy it and go through, go through it multiple times, but it's just funny, you know, you have that conversation all the time. So it's, it's our job to try to educate them as best we can, because we've done it before, but I think it's just all about setting that right expectation. Totally, totally, dude. I know this was great. This is great. I always enjoy it when I get, when I get some of your time. I think what you guys are doing down in Phoenix is awesome. I appreciate you coming on the show, dude, thanks for joining the wealth of knowledge. Appreciate it. Thanks, Reese, of course, we'll see you. Dude, see it.