Mission Before Margin with Hayden Croxall

Reece sits down with Hayden Croxall to unpack how he built a multi-entity construction group by leading with purpose, not just profit. They discuss why residential work is so emotional, how Hayden thinks about holding companies and cross-serving trades, and what his tech stack changed for job costing and AP. You will walk away with a clearer filter for growth, culture, and hiring. If this one hits, share it with a builder who needs the reminder.

https://www.croxallcommercial.com

Show notes:
00:00 Money and purpose
00:49 Meet Hayden
01:51 From recession to resilience
04:53 Teaching to painting
07:42 Tornado to roofing
14:10 Four companies
16:45 Why residential's emotional
21:19 Holding company setup
24:55 Adaptive saves hours
32:02 Diversify or focus
39:43 Hiring for character
43:30 Culture you enforce
45:59 Final thoughts

Find Our Hosts:
Reece Barnes
Matt Calvano

Podcast  Produced By:
Motif Media

Transcript

0:00

Money and property. The one thing they have in common is that they both burn. Every house we build is one day going to get knocked down. Every company we start is one day going to get closed if we're not doing this for something greater than making money, it really is purposeless. Welcome to builders, budgets and beers. I'm Rhys Barnes and I started this podcast to have real conversations about money in the building industry, the wins, the mistakes and everything in between. I believe builders deserve to feel confident about their finances, and that starts by hearing from others who've been through it too. This industry can be slow to change, but the right stories and the right tools can make profitability feel possible. Let's get into it. Mics are hot. Hayden, we're rolling baby, all right. Um, thanks for jumping on the show. Hey, thanks for having me. Reese, of course, of course. I'm really excited to jump with you. I've enjoyed getting to know you. Frankly, you and I getting to know each other over the last few months only, but you've been with adaptive for a while. Yeah, you've been on board. I mean, it's over 12 months now. So yeah, we're I think it was last fall, okay, running key three that we signed on. Okay, beautiful. Well, I so you worked closely with our CEO, Matt, and I just started getting involved with you because Matt had spoken, spoken, spoken highly of you. It's spoken, isn't it? I think spoken so highly of you, and I think you're going to be an incredible guest for the fine Contractors of America to tune into and learn a little something from. But before we get going, give the listeners a little background. Who are you? Where are you at? What do you build? Just some of the basics. Yeah. Hayden croxel Cross the construction companies. That's our holding company. We have four operating entities underneath that. We've got crocs looking crocs, commercial, cross residential crops will painting and cross all roofing. So we were really original in terms of how we how we named each of those entities. Yep, my dad got into construction back in, oh, seven. Really, really great time to kick off a construction company. So what, what was the motivation for him to get into it? Well, he'd always been a really successful entrepreneur through a number of circumstances outside of his control. We basically kind of lost everything. And so this was in the lead up to the recession and and, and I watched him go from being the president of a an owner of a really successful company to everything's gone. And, yeah, it was, it was, it was a hard season. I was 1312, 13 at the time, and but I will say it was the most transformative season for my dad and for me at such a kind of key junction point in my growing up. It was a very transformational season for me watching him and how he continued to love his family, serve his family, show up every day, work hard. I mean, he literally went from running a seven figure company to renovating houses in the lower income parts of our town for a friend. Yeah, that that was, that was what he did. But he did it because he wanted to stay he wanted to stay close to home. He didn't want to get a traveling job. He wanted to be here with us during those key growing up years. And I watched him be, I mean, I watched him grow in patience, presence and and then over the course the next 10 years, build a construction company like mostly in kind of the commercial space. But I'm to the point where he won Builder of the Year in 2017 nice and, and just really built a foundation for for me and my brothers that we're grateful for. And so I did not, though, go into construction, starting out, and I had kind of the golden ticket of, hey, you can come work with me, son. And I said, No, Dad, I'm gonna go save my children and be a teacher. I ended up going the teacher route. Started teaching back in 2016 and married Mary, my high school sweet sweetheart in 2016 and we were going along had our first son in 2017 at our second son in 2019 and right around that time, Katie was staying home, and I realized that the teacher salary with a wife staying home, and, you know, gradually populating the earth was trending in the wrong direction. That's right, the dollars don't shake out at that rate. It was it. It got a little hairy there for a minute. So we had, we had a mortgage, and in a lot of. Diapers and so yeah, ended up starting a painting company, not because I knew anything about painting. I didn't actually know what sheen meant, which turned out it's kind of like an important part of of painting. But I was working in a an urban school serving a largely immigrant population. I'm fluent in Spanish, and so I was teaching English to speakers over the languages and and I knew painters because I was so involved in the Hispanic community, it sounds like, well, you know, painting can't be that hard, and if you paint it wrong, you just paint it again. So for you, it was the lowest liability. So I would launch my painting company on April Fool's Day 2019, and I would go drop off material at a job site, go to school, teach for eight hours, coach. Then I would go, I was coaching soccer, and then I would go work on the job sites till about midnight. Sometimes I'd bring a student or two along. And then, so that was kind of, yeah, it was a, it was a busy season, and Katie was very gracious during kind of those first, those first months and in, I mean, I was working all the time, but it was, it was what I had to do. I had two little boys at home and but that company kind of gradually grew. I and I was teaching at the same time, and so I was forced into learning systems, and because I couldn't be on the job site during eight, nine hours of the day, and so really quickly got into different systems, be it with project management software, kind of different CRMs and and then started subbing out and kind of bringing on additional crews, brought my brother in law and to help kind of manage on site. So I would be, I'd be teaching, and then during you know, lunch breaks, I'd go drive over, check on our project, if it was close by, or text my subs and kind of see where things were. So that was, that was how things went for about two and a half years. In the meantime, we had our third daughter, and then we started fostering again. In 21 we got our now youngest son, Kai, in 21 so then we were at four, and then he had four siblings. And so the end of 2021 I left teaching, went full time into entrepreneurship at the same time in January of 22 Kai's four siblings now are four additional children moved in. So we were I had a painting company, an exteriors company, and eight a wife and eight kids in an 1800 square feet of home. So it was okay, okay, even on that there's so much in there, there's so much in there, but I think even at the building side, there's 10 people, eight kids, right? Yep, two parents, 10 kids, 10 people, living in 1800 square feet, yep. Why does the average home Hit like 2200 square feet, or whatever it is these days, with normal houses being 30 504,000 square feet? What? Why? How was it a family that size and 1800 square feet? I mean our master our master closet was a bedroom, our laundry room was a bedroom. Our sun room was a better no way everything turned into a bedroom outside of our living room, kitchen and dining room. So that's that's how we managed. I don't I think that our our family sizes have shrunk somewhat over the past 200 years, and so maybe the necessity hasn't been there now we did, because I in 22 I started doing commercial roofing at the same time, I skipped this, but in 2020 Chattanooga got hit by a tornado, okay, and so we it was middle. It was right in the middle of covid. Was in April of 2020 and so we were doing remote teaching work and so, and a lot of my kids didn't have internet, so there wasn't a ton that I could do. So I went out and did a bunch of relief work. And I saw these out of town roofing companies coming in, and I was like, well, shoot, you know, like these guys are just coming in for a payday, like, I know I can go find roofers, and I actually care about our community. So we started roofing in 2020 and so I was doing some roofing jobs. Kind of all at the same time, started Commercial Roofing, got my GC, landed a large commercial roofing job here locally, and then towards the kind of, I guess, August or so of 2022 I had my GC. We were turning down residential work because our painting company and roofing didn't really accommodate it. And my dad was doing commercial work. I was like, well, there's probably a market out there for residential work. And so in talking to my dad, we're like, well, let's, let's launch a residential company. And I was looking at. My my spreadsheet. I was like, I think I'm going to make enough money off of this commercial roofing job where I could hire one of my best friends who was a pm at a another residential construction company. And so I went to him, and I said, Hey, I don't have any jobs lined up. I think I can probably cover your salary, though, with the money I'm going to make on this roofing job. Like, what do you say? And so he came on in the end of 2022, and and here we are three years, three years later. So it's been a it's been a trip. You need a documentary. First off, this is, this is already just a kick ass story. I'm even just saying, I mean, it doesn't okay a lot of, a lot of my world, right? Production accounting, finance, software, stuff like that. Very calculated, right? It's very calculated. It's very meticulous. It's very quantifiable, right? Yeah, it doesn't sound like there was a lot of that involved, unless you're shortchanging yourself. But it doesn't sound like there was a lot of like, like, oh, well, the market says this, and I think that we can do this, and it sounds like you're just like, Dude, it just makes sense. We should just go do it. Let's go do it, for better, for worse. That's just kind of how I operate, which I think it's great. There's nothing wrong with that. I just think it's more of a testament to, I think a lot of people will get in their way as to, I have to have this perfect business plan, or I have to have X, Y and Z lined up before I can do this. And you're just looking at this like making decisions like, Hmm, we've got the we've got the exteriors covered, we've got the roofs covered, we've got the commercial covered. The only thing that's missing is residential. I go, somebody, let me go figure it out. I mean, that's, that's basically how it's gone. And, I mean, ready, fire, aim is kind of my my motto. As as the companies have grown, I've, I've had to bring guys in who helped kind of tether me a little bit. Sure, we always joke that I'm the kite, and then the guys around me are the tree that I'm attached to so that we don't just float away. But it's that's just kind of how I've been wired, but grateful for guys who helped ground me and make me kind of, you know, at least, at least have somewhat of a plan before we jump in headfirst every time. Totally 100% Okay, so we've got a lot of chew chew on first. You made a comment earlier about being completely or you're completely fluent in Spanish. How do you say builders budgets and beers in Spanish? Okay, well, we've got cerveza, all right. So builders bear, yeah, I mean builders Good grief. I think through my trade vocabulary, but I mean, we would tip for sure, yeah, well, hey, and I appreciate that. Maya, the guys always just say Hefei. And so I'm just gonna go with Hefe. I don't know that. I've learned that one on the job. They just say, hey Jefe, and then, and then budgets. You know, we don't really believe in budgets on job site, so that's right, okay, okay, I'm gonna look it up. I'm gonna look it up. How do you say builders and you and you had your shot, builders, budgets and beers and Spanish. Um, okay, this is so easy. It's presses, pressu, petos de, constructores e, services, okay, there you go. Every day you got every day. Okay, so we've got four entities in the crocsle, enterprise, eight kids, a wife, brothers, any sisters? Yeah, no. Sisters. We did. We did tag on a bookend in 2024 so there's nine kids. Nine kids, yeah, okay, okay, so I mean, legacy is there, or at least opportunity for legacy is there, that's perfect. Yeah. Okay, so with the four entities, what's your favorite? I'm not gonna do that with the kids, but with the entities, what's your favorite? You know that's, that's like asking which, which kids your favorite? Okay, there's, there's, there's things about each of them that are fun. Okay, that the pain one, you know, that's, that's my baby. That's when I started. Yeah, it was just, it was, it was me. What do you like about the painting? I mean, really, nothing about painting itself. Okay, it's the business side, yeah, the business side. I mean, that was just where I learned everything. You go in and look at a project, you say, oh, what's going to cost us much to do it? And then you learn on the back end that it actually cost twice that. And you look at you say, Well, I just paid a lot for experience. So I paid a lot for experience when I was with, you know, the painting company, yeah, the the commercial company. That's where we absorbed our dad's operations. And so a lot of the guys there have been with us for for a. Long time. And so there's, there's that familiarity going back a decade and a half and and that's where my brother, he oversees our operations. There he's, he's my business partner at the holding level. And so that company is, is a fun one, you know, just kind of going in and figuring out, hey, how do you market in in a commercial setting versus a residential because those are two just completely different sides of the coin, and so so that one holds kind of more of a, what I say, like a business kind of esque challenge, because it isn't fully relational, like residential is residential is it's all relationships, it's all positioning. It's it. I mean, the emotion, the emotional level of residential versus commercial are polar opposites, and so interesting residential is, is fun, extremely grateful for a lot of those deep relationships that we've developed with some clients over the course of our time, over the past three years. But man, is it is taxing on a level that commercial just isn't because you don't have that same level of emotion. These are people's it is their largest investment that they're going to make, and it's for their family. So you're tying it to their family, which is the most important thing they're you're tying it to their money, and you put it all together in an industry that they don't know anything about, and you have to help them navigate what could be a year or two year long process where each of those are being depleted over the course of that time. Yeah, and so is, it is just, it's taxing and challenging on a totally different level, but I enjoy the challenge part of it and the relational component, 1,000% that was beautiful, by the way. I've never, I've had, I've done a lot of these conversations, and I've never had someone explain what makes residential construction as emotional, or, like, why it's so emotional. The way that you did that was fantastic. I totally agree. But so is it just fair to, like, say that the commercial side isn't as emotional because we're talking about investors. We're talking about business assets. We're not talking about like, this is where my family sleeps and grows up and we build memories in with money that I'm leveraging as a common person. There absolutely is emotion on the commercial side, yeah, but it's, it's much more professionalized than it would be on the residential side. And for what am I? What I mean by that is that you've got deadlines, and usually the person who you're dealing with isn't the business owner, it's somebody who's been put in a role where they're helping oversee this process. Now sometimes it is the business owner to pay on the size of the project, but sometimes project, but sometimes it's not. So there's, there's pressure from this angle coming in on this person, so they're going to put pressure on us there, you know, for deadlines and that sort of things that cost overruns that. But it is not to the same extent when you're involving family and and your stakeholders aren't tied to it from a business standpoint, where it's transactional, it's it's so much more relational and and it's also just a longer process to like our that's, that's the nice thing about commercial is you can go in and knock out a 1.5 fit out, $1.5 million fit out in four or five months. Yeah, $1.5 million custom home is going to be a 15 month to 18 month process, depending on how many details are going into it, right? So you're you're stuck with that person for three times as long. There are three times as many decisions that are being made, and it's their home. So it just totally different kind of scenario. Totally okay, so that's super interesting. Um, I mean, which one do you prefer? Which which fits best with who you are? Yeah. I mean, I'm relational, and so I am a, I mean, to that point, you know, it lends itself to sales, and so that fits into my role with kind of the different, you know, both sides the company, but, but I love relationships and we exist. I mean, our mission statement is better in the lives of families, yeah? And so while we are able to do that on the commercial side, yeah, that when you're building someone's home where their family is going to be living, yeah, it's, it's that much more kind of important and purposeful. And so I do really enjoy the residential side and in that family focus that we have over there, for sure. And this isn't to be like misunderstood as, like, Hayden owns a holding company and he neglects the commercial side, right? Like, that's not what it says. The reason I wanted to ask is, because I think, like, there's kind of like this, like realization moment happening for me on the podcast right now, to where it's like this goes even deeper into recognizing who you are as a human right, and like, which avenues you should be taking. Because I think in construction, and frankly, like all like forms of careers, like people try to become these things, or do. These things that they might not just be like built for or like aligns with who they are. So I think, like your self awareness and your ability to articulate that is incredible. Just knowing that, like you're a relationships guy, like you've got nine kids, of course you love families, right? Like you're like, one of the most genuine, authentic people I know. So of course, you love the relationship side, right? I think, and I think that's that's incredible. It's very interesting just to hear you explain it in the sense of what you build, right, whether, whether it is commercial or it is residential. And again, it's not to say that, like commercial is getting neglected, but I agree, from what I hear, it's much more, it's much more business driven, it's much more process oriented, like when I have people on that work at residential home builders, right? Some of the most successful ones were operations people, project managers, site Supers, project engineers at commercial contractors, and because they understand the process behind everything and how that world operates, when they plug that into residential they see a ton of success, for sure, absolutely. But okay, that's cool. So one piece that I so I've been having quite a few conversations about this on the podcast, outside of the podcast, but I'm curious to know, how do your four entities play together? You obviously said they're under a holding company, but how do they play together? Are you doing? Go ahead, well, so they all operate as individual entities, and that's that's important to us. So we have, we have leadership in each of those companies, and we want to go to look at them as individual entities, because we want them to perform. And so, I mean, you can think of them as four different teams, and in terms of how they interact with each other, like painting will serve as a sub for commercial or as a sub for residential. Same thing with roofing. And so they operate as vendors for each other. And so there is kind of this, this web that we're able to spread. I mean, right now we're, we're doing a fit out for, you know, a guy who owns a company, and then we're doing a build out for him, or like a renovation on his house. So that kind of component of having different entities does lend itself to some cross pollination and furthering kind of opportunities. But in terms of how they operate individually, they are their own companies underneath the entire organization, so there isn't necessarily a competition between the different entities, but the books are different. The you know, ar, AP, all that is separate because we want it to be distinct. Want to be able to look at reports and know exactly how each of those companies are doing from a health standpoint, and then our holding company serves as the back end office for all of those, that's where we have our bookkeepers. That's where we have our estimating team. And so each of those companies pays the holding company monthly for those services, and then that's where we get paid out of is out of the holding company. Yeah. Okay, so that's perfect. Okay, so two things, ies and earnings, like, how that, how that all plays together. Okay, the first is, that's why you're so pro QuickBooks. Integrated? Was it integrated? Enterprise solution is, yeah, into an enterprise suite, into an enterprise suite. I was way off. I had enterprise right? Yeah, yeah, okay. But so that's you're very pro that. Why are you pro ies? I mean, we're able to go in and have a consolidated view of all of our companies. And so what they're doing, you know, we were getting to the point we had four separate QBO accounts. You have to go into each individual account in order to look and assess the health of each individual company. Going into ies meant that I can now go in I can see a consolidated report for everything. And so no longer do I have to go in and click between different ones. Additionally, when it comes to, like, journal entries and that sort of thing, you know, due to do from all of that happens in one platform, as opposed to being something that our team has to go in and somehow reconcile between different profiles, it's all there in one place. You know, we were at the point where we're having to start asking that question, do we go to a sage? Do we go to a NetSuite? And ies kind of came in at the perfect time for us, where we were able to say, actually, we can stick with Intuit, which is where we already are. Yeah, we already trust them with our money now, so it makes sense for us to continue trusting them with this new platform. And we've really enjoyed it and appreciative for what they've done for us totally. And that plays well with adaptive. Oh yeah, oh yeah, yeah. I'm throwing you. I'm throwing you layups here, because I know it's important for people to hear because this is this is important shit. Go ahead, you know, I mean, I plug adaptive and ies all the time, because are you getting kickbacks from either? No, I need to. I need to work something out, though, authentic. Hey, I want to provide value to you. I don't want to compensate my spokespeople, though, because it needs to be authentic. We'll figure it out. We'll get, well, I don't know. We'll take but no, I mean, if I see something that works, that add. Value to people. I'm going to talk about it, that's just how, but I'm not going to go sell something that I don't believe in. I mean, part of the reason why I think I'm a good salesman is because I believe in our product. I believe in our team. I believe in our offering. Yep, same thing when I'm going out and talking about ies or adaptive. I mean, for us, and this is the plug, but I'll just say it. When we were when we brought on or sign on with adaptive. We were interviewing for a third bookkeeper, yep. So that's where we were. We had two full time or basically two full time bookkeepers. Were interviewing for a third because they were at capacity. And we were looking at companies that were growing, and we're like, well, we can't keep letting this stuff drop. We were on builder showing we were using the builder trend accounting system. And it was, I'm just gonna say it or the AR AP, it was clunky. I hated that they would receive an invoice, they would download it, they would upload it, they would have to key it in. They didn't have to download it and upload into QuickBooks Online. And all I saw was inefficiency everywhere. What adaptive did is it took what could be 100 100 clicks to get one invoice into our AR AP, and draw package down to 10. And so where are you getting this 100? And is that? Are those actual, what is the hundreds? Clicks? Yeah. So I'm talking about like clicks on your keyboard, typing in names, like vendors. I mean, that's, that's what it did for our company. And so our two bookkeepers, who were at capacity we were interviewing for a third they ended up shaving between three to five hours a week off of their time with adaptive. So that's 50k just right off the bottom line, right? Yeah, that we ended up saving, right? And so, I mean, for that reason, I'll tell anybody and everybody about you know, how great adaptive has been. I mean, for us, we have hundreds of invoices coming in a week. Yep, and and one, it's easy for things to slip, and that's happened before. When our when our bookkeepers are getting all these invoices coming in, they have to somehow download and then upload like it, the opportunity for one mistake to cost you 1000s of dollars over the course of a project is there totally. So for us it, it completely mitigated that risk. And on top of it, I mean, it added a lot of bonuses with the job costing and that sort of thing. So that's where we do all of our reporting right now, is inside of adaptive. And so I'm really, really happy with our tech stack right now, especially on the accounting and financial side of it, totally, totally well. And I wanted to ask Thank you, obviously, for the plug. I probably need to reel that in a little bit. But point being is, I think it's applicable to the episode, because with really the theme of you running multiple entities, right, we're talking about ies. We'll get into earnings here in a minute. But and like understanding how that plays together with adaptive I think, is the important piece, because when there's a lot of upside to the line of thinking that you have, which is, I've got my painting company, I've got my roofing company, I've got my residential company, I've got my commercial company, right? And all of these things are kind of like feeding and playing into each other, and like, that's going to be impacting, but it's keeping everything straight and delineated as important, right? So when you're talking about, like, the the service side of the business, how do you guys? You just have the four, and this is what I actually don't know. You've got the four adaptive accounts for each entity. But then how does that work with IES? You just, like, map it to it just ties right into that profile. Yeah. So in ies, we have our parent company, which is companies, and then all the other four companies in there as well, yeah. And so those four adaptive companies just map right over into ies, and that's where we get our consolidated reporting at the holding company level. And we still have, you know, we have paid away of expenses and stuff that come out of the holding company. So it's still a quote, unquote operating company, because we run our back end offices out of it. But it isn't a construction company necessarily, and so for that reason, it just lives in, lives in ies, and acts as the parent company for, for those entities. Okay, beautiful, okay, so no, that's that's helpful, and that's where, where I wanted, I want to go with this next is the earnings side, because I did a podcast with which is most notably with will king. He's with high cotton down in Alabama, killer dude. And he was talking about what, I think he stood up in excavation side of his business, right? And you're getting, like, excavation and, like, heavy equipment and stuff like that. And then he would rent the equipment to his GC, and he would perform excavation work, stuff like that. You're saying, like, how, like, much that did to his bottom line, right? Not only was he like, getting better, more reliable work and numbers from the excavation side and the scope of work, but he was also making higher margin work on his excavation side. How do you view it like? Let's just start it like a very like top line function of or top line, wrong term, high level function of all these entities playing together. How do you view the earnings side, and how do you see that benefit your company by structuring it the way that you have so, I mean, we don't view it as double dipping, because anything we do, we want to be fair to the client. You know. We want to have the mentality of what we're going to do this exactly how we would want somebody to do to us. And so when we go in and one company is serving as a sub to the other, because, I mean, for example, our commercial company may go in and do steel work for our residential company if we have steel work on it. And so, I mean, really, almost all of the companies have worked under the other in some capacity. And what we're not going to do is just white label it and then tack, you know, our price onto it. We're delivering value. So if we're going to hire our sub, you know, our own company to act as a sub, we're going to deliver the value that we're going to to bill on. I mean, from a financial standpoint, it's great because it ensures a pipeline, because every residential project needs painting, every commercial project needs painting. So we have a pipeline, but it also holds that company accountable, because if I need to bring another painting company to service this project, we're going to do it. And so this company is its own entity, and it has to ensure that it's meeting that value, that that we're promising to this other company, because they're ultimately accountable to the client and delivering that value to their clients. So for us, I mean, it comes down to that. Now the reality is, is that if we were to go hire another painting company, they're paying somebody else overhead. So we look at as well, how about we make that overhead and deliver insane value through using our own company. So that's, that's our approach to it. It's just, it's an avenue for us to go in, deliver value and increase our pipeline for those subsidiary companies, totally, totally and so. And this just kind of organically happened, right again, just to go back to the beginning of the episode, you were just like, I'm gonna start with a painting company. Really no rhyme or reason, other than you thought it was like the most real the most reliable, right? The simplest to figure out, and they just start stacking together. How would you advise a builder who's listening to this that's like, I own the GC, a lot of them do, right? Yeah, general contractor. And they're like, I want to start going down the path that Hayden went down, or I want to start throwing in other streams. How would you advise they go about doing that? So funny, if you asked me a year ago, I'd given you a totally different answer, yeah, okay, where I'm at now is I'm seeing our two GC companies with the potential to grow significantly over the next 510, years. And so the trajectory is really high for those companies and operate lean by not having a ton of tools, you know, ton of like, we're going to have trucks and people, and we're going to go and we're going to service GCS on these projects. Previously, I was all about diversification, having all of, you know, building out an MEP company, having all these kind of sub companies in house. Because I was like, well, we're going to make overhead off of each of these individual companies and do it that way. But I mean, as you start getting into larger and larger projects, you kind of realize, I'm like, we're bidding one house where the gross profit on it, on a on a two year build, would be more than our gross profit on it for the painting company for an entire year. And so if I'm looking I'm like, okay, one project can facilitate what this entire company would produce over the course of a year. And so we've now switched to, instead of focusing in on our two larger companies, we're still going to keep the painting company, we're still going to keep the roofing company. Roofing Company, but we're not going to go launch a full MEP company. We're not going to go launch an asphalt company, a concrete company, right? We're going to focus on relationships with the best subs, and then we're going to push our GC companies towards towards a growth trajectory that we think that they're possible, that they can achieve. Okay? So that's how we've really we've pivoted a lot from where we were, but it's more having been kind of that ready, fire, aim for the first five, six years of my entrepreneurial journey. Yeah, we're kind of focusing in and saying, You know what, we've gotten over that initial hump of starting the business and getting the systems in place. Now it's we've got something good going that we can we can really scale. And so that's we're honing in on more of a focused approach at this point. Totally. Okay, so you're so essentially correct me if I'm wrong, but the answer isn't run out and go stand up a painting entity. It's zero in and crush with your GC company. It is, okay, okay, that's interesting. Okay, so you, I mean, you, so when you have builders that like, let's say they're plateauing at like, 8 million, right? 8 million in top line, 10 million in top line, which is actually 10 million, is usually where it's at, right? It's like the $10 million a year guys, like, they've gone through the zero to one, the one to three, the three to five, right? And then they get the five to 10, and they're just kind of like, God, like, how do I get into that 2030, $50 million a year business? Yeah, you're just telling them just hunker down. Like, focus on processes, systems, focus on or, what would you tell them to do? Yeah, and we're not in the 2030s right now. We'll do about 15, with our residential being our biggest this year, and that company is on a on a continued trajectory. But I mean, for us, it really comes down to building those systems and being able to duplicate yourself. I think that's one thing why I'm trying to focus in more on individual entities, as opposed to diversifying, is every single entity takes time to build. It takes time to build the systems, to tech stack the people and but you can't just, you know, wind them up and then let them go. There's still that continued kind of evolution that has to take place that then continued investment from a leadership standpoint, and in the way I'm looking at it now is we have an amazing set of leadership teams. If we continue to invest in these guys, what's the trajectory going to be there? And so diversifying is a distraction at this point with what we've already got in place. You know, we've also gotten, we got some property entities and stuff where we have real estate holdings. And so I'm kind of looking at it saying, all right, what can we do? Really, really, really well better than other people, and focusing on that. And so that's, that's our plan in terms of how to go from a, let's just say, you know, arbitrary revenue, from 15 this year to 18 or 20 next year and the 25 but that's, that's how we're doing it. But we also, I mean, I will say, like, from a growth standpoint, we also aren't going at it from the standpoint of, we have these revenue goals, right? Okay, we're what we're really focusing on is, is building the best company for guys to come in and work at where they're encouraged and challenged, so they can go home and love their families well. And because that's I mean the home. And going back to our mission statement of bettering the lives of families, the home is where the greatest world change happens. It's not some, you know, government policy, it's it's parents loving their children well, and so that's our goal. We do that by facilitating, you know, these build experiences for our clients. We do it by taking care of our subs and our vendors, and we do it by taking care of our people and investing in them, not just from a professional standpoint, but holistically and and what we've seen, I mean, thus far, recent, we're three years in. We'll wrap up this year, the residential company around eight and a half million. We've already got that in the pipeline for 26 with room to add on more projects. And so we're seeing this, this trajectory, from a revenue standpoint, that's that's exciting, but in terms of what we're focusing on, it's actually more of our internal culture, who we are as a company, why we exist, more than any other KPI or metric. Because at the end of the day, like money and property. They're the one thing they have in common is that they both burn. And every house we build is one day going to get knocked down. Every company we start is one day going to get closed. And if we're not doing this for something greater than then, you know, making making money, it really is purposeless. And so for us, I mean it the purpose has to be more than making money. And so that's really what our what our primary focus on. That's how we're going to define success. And if that equates hitting $30 million in revenue, that'll be that'll mean that there's gonna be more guys who we can hire, who we can care for, encourage challenge, and be able to send home to, you know, provide well and love their families well. So that's, that's really why we exist and and really what our driving principle is, dude, that is, that is awesome. And that was literally gonna be my question is, like, how do you advise guys to, like, do, like, look at the growth thing. And I think so many people, they are. They're just what's the top line number? It's just a tale as old as time. Any builders just jumping at the seams, excited to tell you how much they're doing in top line revenue, but they're not talking about the bottom line, and they're certainly not talking about the culture, right? And and with you're just like so focused on building that culture and driving with purpose and instilling good quality people. That's where your results are coming from. When you hire these people. Is this a part of recruiting? Or do you think this is more about development internally? Can you take someone who might not, like, be killer on paper, but like, bring them into the culture, set them into like, the accountability, the expectations, the culture and they can pivot. What's your take? Yeah, four years ago, it was, it was the winter. It was December. I had four painting employees, so I was still teaching at the time. I guess it was, it was the winter of 2020, and I had my lead painter. Player, his right hand man, and then a former student of mine and my brother in law. So two teenagers and then two experienced painters, yeah, I fired my lead in his right hand gun leading into the spring season. Like, like, things are about to, like, pick up, yeah. And I remember thinking like, is this the worst decision I ever made? Yeah, tornado is the best decision I ever made, because that commitment to our culture from from the very start, from the onset, has transformed who we are as a company, and it is our people are why we are in any position of success, right? So we start with our mission statement of better than the lives of families. We go through our values of faith, character, courage, compassion and excellence. That's the filter that every single potential hire has to flow through. And we say, is this, is this? Is this a person of work ethic and character? If, if you can nail those two things, you can teach somebody anything. But if I don't care if you've got 20 years of experience, you've built mansions in Montana, if you don't have work ethic, and if you don't have character, like it's all for naught. And so we've, we've made some bets. I mean, our our director in our painting company, one of the best hires I ever made, he came. He had eight years of experience in law enforcement, and then eight months of work as an assistant project manager on a production for a production building company, yeah. And I was like, Hey, listen, you want to come run our painting company? Yeah, the resume didn't, you know, line him up for it, but I recognize, man, he's a man of character, and he's a man of work ethic, and I can trust him, yeah, and the dude's bawling out for lack of a better term, and it's just a joy to be around and and I can walk through just one after another the guys on our teams, and every single one of them are just men of work ethic and character. And that is, that's the difference maker. And, dude, it makes a difference on the job sites, our subs come to us and they say, Hey, listen, I want you to know that the way your guys treat us is different. Our clients recognize it. I mean, there's a reason why we don't do any marketing like everything we do is word of mouth, and not that there's not upset clients and not things that we have to navigate, but but the way that our guys treat people, which is from a from their hearts, from who they are as people, it makes a difference. And that's, I mean, any, any, quote, unquote, success is 100% due to who they are as individuals. Yeah, totally. I think this is, again, this is, I think there's a lot of stuff that that people can take away from this. And I think to even like devil's advocate of that is like, this stuff seems fluffy, right? Like it really, it's, it's hard to like, to quantify it, right? It's, it's even like, when you go through your principles, right, or your foundation, or, what was it? It's your your mission statement and your principles, right? It's like you hear them as, like, every, every corporate company has those five things on their walls, right? With like the eagle flying over the mountain, like, you know what I'm saying, like the Whoa thing. They all have it, but it's the important piece, is believing in it, right? And holding people accountable to it, and creating a culture of people that also believe in it, and knowing what that looks like and what it does. So to end this, what are some tactical things that builders can do to establish that culture and start driving that forward to see the results in their business? Yeah, well, I mean, I mean for us, it's, it is an uncompromisable commitment to your mission, your values, because it's, it's, you're exactly right. Everybody's got the mission statement and the values. You can put them up on the wall, you can put them on a shirt, you can put them on a plaque. But people see through that. You know, they can see through the fluff. And as as the leader of an organization, you're like, it starts with you, and everything's going to trickle down from you. And so if there's any compromise on that mission statement or those values, like people are going to see it, and then they're going to be able to call it for what it is, which is BS. And so I mean for me, I mean having individuals around me who hold me accountable to those values. Because there are times where, where profit sounds a whole lot nicer than purpose. It just it just does. And I mean, I've cut a lot of kids and mouths to feed, and so there are those like that. Temptation is there. And so having people who are going to hold me accountable with that mission statement, those values is absolutely crucial. You can't run this thing alone. You have to have brothers alongside you, both internally and externally, who are encouraging you and challenging you in that. But I mean for me, like I where I go, and this is tying into our first value of faith. Like it to me, we're a part of something that extends our own kingdom and anything that we can build. And again. And property and money, they're both kind of burned, and I just have to hammer that into my head, and that allows me to look at our mission statement, our values, and say, You know what? That's the filter that I'm going to use today. I'm not going to let profit supersede purpose. It's dude. It's day to day. It is it is hard, and you can't do it alone. That's what I would encourage other builders with, Dude, that's awesome. That's awesome. Again, I think this is gonna be an episode that that people might have to listen to multiple times, or even, like, lean on it as, like, like a sense of motivation and like, a sense of what can be. Because, again, I think, and that's, that's kind of the differentiator, right? If it was so easy, you'd have all these fantastic companies out there, right? But it's the ones that are exceptional, that stick to these types of principles, that you can feel it in the work, you can see it in the employees, right? That's where where business gets exciting. Hayden, you're an absolute national treasure, dude, thanks. Thanks. Thanks for jumping on the pot and sharing, sharing a little bit about your world. Thanks for having me. Reese, you bet we'll see you, dude.