When The Job Becomes More Than A Paycheck with Paul Durst

Reece sits down with Paul Durst of Waldman Construction to talk about what happens when a construction business grows past gut feel, old habits, and numbers that live in one person’s head.

They cover why purpose still has to connect to healthy financials, how training protects growth, and why better invoicing and delegation can give owners the space to actually work on the business.

https://waldmannconstruction.com

Show Notes:
00:00 Intro
01:05 Meet Paul
03:27 Learning Financials
06:10 Growth Without Experience
08:32 Finding Your Why
13:00 Financial Responsibility
16:37 Leadership Growing Pains
21:58 Purpose Through Experience
23:07 Training The Team
30:43 Systems Create Space
34:47 Closing Thoughts

Find Our Hosts:
Reece Barnes
Matt Calvano

Podcast  Produced By:
Motif Media

Transcript

0:00

Early on, it's a job, right? A lot of people start their careers out because you got to make a living. You start making a living, and then you start asking, like, why am I doing this, and if you can answer that and be happy with that answer, I'm like, okay, I'm proud of what I do, and move from there. That's a big turning point for a lot of people. Welcome to Builders Budgets and Beers. I'm Reece Barnes, and I started this podcast to have real conversations about money in the building industry, the wins, the mistakes, and everything in between. I believe builders deserve to feel confident about their finances, and that starts by hearing from others who've been through it too. This industry can be slow to change, but the right stories and the right tools can make profitability feel possible. Let's get into it, all right. Paul, mics are hot. We're rolling. All right, here we go, here we go, here we go. We're all set, we're all set, we're ready to rip. Um, thanks so much for jumping on the old builders budgets and beers. I'm excited to dig into your story here, and just, you know, get your perspective on, you know, things in the construction space. So, I think to start things out as we do on the show, go ahead and give the audience a little, little intro, a little background on yourself, where you started, how you got into construction, where you guys are now? Just kind of a little story. Yeah, for sure. So, Paul Durst worked with Waltman Construction. We're a design-build general contractor in northern Wisconsin, located in St. Germain, and we've just recently added a second location in Land O' Lakes, Wisconsin. So, very much like north northeast Wisconsin. We're in the, yes, I pretty sure they have great butter up in Land of Lakes, doesn't it? It's a different Land of Lakes, I'll ask her on Tom. So, yeah, yeah, okay, okay. I digress. I had to, I had to, so yeah, I've been here with Waltman Construction for over 18 years. I started in oh eight, it's kind of a scary time to get into construction, but stuck with it. Got hired on as human resources for Waldman Construction, and I knew HR guy, yeah, I knew nothing about construction. I mean, I was very upfront, so it's not like I interviewed, and I was like,"Yeah, I'll come in and do your HR, I'm well versed in construction. Yeah, not at all. So everybody was aware that they had a need for human resources, and I had a background in that, somewhat heavy on insurance, so that was the big piece that they needed someone to just make sure that that was being taken care of, and then, yeah, just kind of grew up with the company, you know. I think one of the things early on was we had just purchased, my wife and I just purchased a home, and we needed a garage, it had no garage, so I built us a.. I learned as I went, how to, how to build by building a detached garage, and obviously I had resources at work that I could ask, and, but it was a great learning experience for me from a building standpoint. But is the garage still standing? It is still standing, even though we sold the home, we, we moved a long ways away, like a quarter mile, so yeah, I actually still drive by it on a regular basis, and it still stayed God's, God's structural integrity. It was built, it was, it was built with love. Yep, for sure. But yeah, so with being here, we had some shake up in the office, got rid of bookkeeping, needed someone to take that on, so I took that on, started learning about construction financials with pen and paper. Oh, yeah. Why not? I mean, this sounds like a pretty classic story here. Yeah, I still remember I was reconciling the bank account with like a ledger and a pencil, and our account was like, why are you doing that, and I'm like, well, because that's what you know the previous individual had done. She's like, yeah, I never had the heart to like show her how to do this, but you can do it really quickly and easily in QuickBooks, like, just let's go through this. Hey, at least you weren't on a, on a stone tablet with a chisel. I mean, that was, that was like thrown out the door in 2000 right? They were eight years into the new process, so yeah, with, with that, you know, taking on that portion of the company, just got into, you know, working with, obviously, trying to understand the billing process, working more with project managers, working with them on scheduling, and now getting versed in operations, and I was with human resources, obviously just trying to understand, like, what the needs were for hiring, what the qualifications were for staff. But definitely got more as I worked longer with the business, got more and more involved with everything, and then it would have been in 2018 the previous owner we worked on, where myself and a couple of my coworkers, couple project managers actually purchased the business, and then the previous owner stayed on for a little bit, couple years, and then yeah, we've been running it, just us, for would have been 21 Covid-ish, where we 20, we were like, okay, so, and it's nice, you know, obviously to have partners involved, you know, to take on like sales and marketing, and then I can focus on, you know, the operations, the financial, the administration, but still, yeah, it's, it's a, you know, there's every once a while the pinch me moment of like you're doing what? Yeah, totally, totally, which is great. Yeah, you made it work, dude. Yeah, yeah, you guys have like effectively like tripled the size of the business since you've started, haven't you? Since I started, yeah, yep, yep, been pretty strong growth here in the last three years. We've had pretty consistent growth, you know, yeah. Well, that's great. That's great. Okay, I just got to ask right at the gate, what was it like zero construction experience, not just like coming in with no experience into a, into a company in Northern Wisconsin, which I can only imagine the field is like as textbook field as it gets, and then on top of that, you get thrown into the HR seat, like I can't imagine they were like welcoming arms, like Paul, love to have you here, yeah, what was it like? I'm gonna keep this as short, it was tough, yeah, I'm sure, yeah, every once while you know, you get, we have the days, because, because my partner and the sales and marketing guy that I work with, Matt, you know, we'll think back, because he was here four years before I was, and he came in with zero construction work through, like, apprenticeship, and he came up through the field, but we'll go back and just be like, oh my gosh, do you remember this, you remember that, and it's, it's, it's fun, and also it's, it's interesting, some of the things we've been through, so, but yeah, it's, uh, you can't be afraid to ask and look stupid, because it's gonna shorten the learning curve, you know, and it was like I said, with building a garage, it's literally like I know I'm asking a stupid question right now, but I need you to answer this part, so do this without, you know, and it's held on for almost 17 years, the garage, you know, like you mentioned, it's still standing, yeah, that's that is the byproduct of asking dumb questions, yeah, a standing garage, nearly two decades later, right? I love it. I love it. Okay. Well, I'm gonna, I'm gonna get in. I've been running this a bit, or I'll ask a question, okay? And, and then you answer it, and I will ref. But the question is, from your point of view, what is the one conversation in construction that needs to be had more that isn't being had enough. It's, it's definitely the for me, it's, it's the why are you doing this, and the reason being you really realize you're passionate about what you're doing, you know, and I think the why is different for different people, you know. The why for me wasn't because I really like to.. I started off because I really like working with my hands. My, my entrance into this was a little bit different path, but I'm obviously rewarded by, you know, like an HR standpoint. I'm rewarded by saying, like, well, our company employs myself and 49 other individuals, like, we directly affect people's lives in a positive way, you know. We're a, we're a small rural community that, you know, we can offer highly competitive wages, we can offer benefits, you know, and that's that's not common, and that's something to be proud of, you know. So, like I said, it might be something, it's a different why for everybody, but I think recognizing that is, you know, it definitely gives you a different perspective, it, you look at it less like you know early on, it's a job, right? A lot of people start their careers out because you got to make a living, and you start making a living, and then you start asking, like, why am I doing this, and if you can answer that and be happy with that answer, I'm like, okay, I'm proud of what I do. And and move from there. I think that's a, that's a big turning point for a lot of people, totally. And I think, like, the know your why is it's fantastic advice, but it's like most fantastic advice. It's extremely ambiguous, right? And people typically get beat over the head with it over and over, of like, know your why, know your why, know your why. If you're doing it for the money, like, blah blah blah, it's like the other old adage, right? It's like, do what you love and the money will come, type of thing, right. So it's similar in that, it's similar in that sense, but I think, like, your answer of why are you doing what you're doing is like the importance of that question is to promote self-awareness and thought right, especially when you get into the I was in the trade, or I just wanted to start a business, and I landed on construction, and now I have like all the dopamine, all the excitement, all the roller coaster high and lows of like getting this thing off the ground. Now it's starting to stabilize, we're maybe doing seven figures in revenue, right, and then we start to get into that bloodbath of like seven figures up to eight figures, and then high eight figures, right, and like hopefully could we ever get the nine right, and you start to think about that, and it's really it's the people that find that deeper why that really get there, and more times than not, if you're someone who is starting a construction company that is, you know, in the trades, starting the company, or your background is in the trade, like executing the work, like there's such a bigger level to then I can build a better house or I can build the best road, right? It's not always like that, is like seemingly becomes table stakes, and it's what isn't what really drives the success of a business. So, what's your take on that? Like, when you like, what was kind of the evolution of you understanding your why, and how do you think of it in context of, you know, people that focus on trade, heavier the business, etc. You know, and I think that was, you know, fortunately I came into a company that took a lot of pride in the quality of the work, the quality of the project, you know, that we were producing, so you know that part of a lot of a staff find a lot of their why in being proud of what they do and being proud of the type of project that they're working on, you know, so, so that was that's almost takes in it makes it a little bit easier for me, where I achieved the, you know, my why is just seeing the impact that it does have on people's lives. Yeah, you know, and it's, it's being a part of a company too, where we can see growth with an employee. I mean, we can have, you know, Matt, you know, my partner that started out as a laborer, really not knowing anything in the trades, and now he's one of the owners of the company, you know. So, you know, that's that's to have that potential and see people, you know, reach their potential or continue to improve. It's, it's highly rewarding, totally, you know. And that leads to so many different things, though. Reese, you had mentioned, you know, there's always the financial impact, like we need to make sure that our company's successful financially, or this all goes away, right? So, like, yeah, we do need to be concerned with what are our numbers and why are they that, versus just, yeah, I think we did pretty good this year, like we'll know. Hope everybody's got a job next year. Totally well, and that's I think that that goes into the why, because it's like so many guys. There's a ton of content on LinkedIn, and just like thought leaders in the space, from a construction accounting standpoint, it's like so many guys operate on the like our bank accounts are heavy, like we're doing good, but then it's like you're not really looking at, like, how much of that is actually yours versus committed cost, right? And then what's the delta, what's the remainder there? And as these guys are like, I've been doing it for this way for so long, like I'm not really concerned with going to that level, that's typically an indicator, like not an overly strong why, right? And it's like, even if you're going to argue, like, I don't want to be a $10 million contractor, I don't want to be $100 million contractor, I want to be a three, four, or $5 million contractor, and just operate this as a lifestyle business. It's like, well, you still like have the obligation to run a healthy business, right, at that level, at that rate, and take some of the risk off the table. So, like, were you guys always that forward thinking, or was it really until you were in, like, a position of leadership or authority, or whatever you want to call it, to where that why really meant something until you started making those changes, or what was that evolution like? Yeah, I think, I think with, with me coming into my role with, like, I'd mentioned earlier, being involved with, you know, just about everything, it was a different perspective than, you know, previous owner started out, and it really was like, you know, he just wanted to have a successful company, and you know, the, the, what's the saying, are you funding. Hobby, or yeah, yeah, are you? Yeah, this is.. I think this is one of mine. It's like, are you, are you, are you running a business? Are you monetizing a hobby? Yeah, yes, right. And I think, you know, I would say our company probably started out monetizing a hobby for somebody, but then it grew as, you know, staff was added, and you know, previous owner as well, he was obviously an intelligent business individual, but again, it was maybe just from a different perspective, you know, yeah, totally, ours is ours is definitely, you know, kind of a perspective of longevity, and you know that constant growth and growth of, you know, like I said, if we'll reward it by providing a good living, and we're rewarded, you know, for our staff and a good, good living for ourselves, like, well, if we continue to grow and grow successfully, you can just keep spreading love, you know, so we got, let us, let us into, and it might be like, you know, like the, you know, take us down memory lane here, but let us, myself in the audience, into the boardroom, or whatever you guys were, as new partners in this business, and explain, like, what were those conversations, or that conversation, what was that like when you were like finding alignment as partners, maybe like pivoting the business into this more long-term vision, less how much can we stuff in our pockets, more how many people can we hire, how many people can we impact in the community. What's the longevity and the stability? Is what was that conversation or series of conversations like? It's a series of conversations, and there wasn't.. I can't just look at, like, well, we have this one meeting, and this is exactly what had happened, you know. It was just repeated conversations, and you know, with us being new into roles of leadership, there's a lot of, you know, where we came from. We were real close with some people that were like coworkers, and you know, we get moved up, and then they're kind of like, well, you're my buddy, like, you know, I'm when am I going to be part of this, and you know, those were tough, like, we had, we had some tough, tough, tough times with that, with it, with a couple of employees, you know, and that, that led to some unhappiness with certain employees, and then they moved on, and then you know that almost helped us, like, grow up, like, you know, you need to deal with some of this stuff head on, like, you're not buddies, even though you're, you know, you might, you might have been like, hey, yeah, let's go fishing, let's go hunting, let's do this, that, or the other thing, but at the end of the day, we're running a business, and we can't, you know, do like, well, yeah, you know, we're buddies, you're my favorite, you can make twice as much as the person doing the same thing, like that's not a thing, right? So there was, there was some definite like trial by fire, some, you know, you learned some tough lessons, but you know, as we, as we got through that, and you know, our conversations were more, you know, less, less structured, like a board. They were more, I would say, probably weekly, you know, sometimes a few times a week, where it's just like, hey, here's what we're dealing with. What do you think? You know, and myself and Matt have a really good relationship with that, like, where we can just, like, let's just have a conversation, and I've been very fortunate with that as well, like never feeling like, hey, I'm out on an island, you know, and I think Matt feels the same way, like I got, I got something, I got to talk to you about something, you know, so totally, so that's been helpful, but I think we all, you know, find a partner in life, whether that's like the business partner, I bring that up to my wife, and my wife is extremely happy that I don't bring business home for the most, yeah, yeah, but I know that that's reality for some people, and my wife and I work together when we first met, we bartended together, and that was all you needed. Oh, we came to a parrot, like this isn't a good idea, yeah, we're not, we're not, we can both be okay with that ending there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, but yeah, you know, I guess back to the original, you know, like I said, it wasn't just a, you know, one time we had a board meeting, we're like, you know, this is the direction of the company. Now, it is something that we definitely have gotten a lot more structured here recently, with saying, like, okay, it needs to be less and less, like myself and Matt, and we need to bring in actual, like, management to be on board with, like, you know, the structure of our company, and where we're going, and why we're doing that, and defining that for everybody, and that's made a big difference as well, just getting the buy-in from your management, and these were all lessons that you know I feel like along the way I probably would have read or heard somewhere, but I'm one that just like you got to live it to learn it, I asked this question or that question. Regularly go ahead. Sorry, yeah. No, I was just saying, like, it's probably could have shortened the learning curve of where I'm at now by about a decade, but you know that's okay. I think there's like the last few episodes this concept has gotten brought up, and it's like, how, like, what are the lessons that people have to experience in order for them to resonate, and how much of it can you just listen to, and say, I'm gonna go, I'm gonna take a left instead of a right here, and I say that, I just, I don't know, man, I think if it were, that's a part of what makes it hard, right? Sure, is it's the people that are willing to go through the experiences to reflect on those experiences, make decisions based on those experiences, and then how successfully can you do that is really like what determines like the reward that you reap from whatever you're doing, and that it's like if it was so easy everyone would do it, right? Yeah, like it's the hard that's great, Jimmy Dugan, League of their own. I mean, Tom Hanks, yeah, there's probably like that lesson of like just perseverance is, you know what, what makes you stick with it and get better, and you know, totally, so yeah, still, still like a work in progress. I mentioned earlier, like I was, yeah, hoping I can bring some, some like valuable information to this podcast, and you know, kind of doing great. You're doing one question, one question that I have for you on this is like, okay, so it wasn't like this like declaration of independence conversation where you guys all sit down with your quills and map it all out, right, but it was like a series of conversations. Would you say that it was like a series of conversations, multiple a week, weekly, monthly, whatever? Would you say that it was the experiences that you had that helped you further cement your why and direct your why, or would you say that you had the why in place, and then these situations just affirmed what you guys are doing this for? No, I think it was definitely our experiences that cemented the why, you know, I think I had mentioned it, you know, a lot of times you start out a job and it's a paycheck, right, and then you learn, like, well, that's only going to get you so far to be like great, because you can always find a paycheck, there's a lot of different places that you can, so you, you stick with, you know, what you're doing, and then understanding, oh, there is some importance in this, and then you're like, oh, this is why we're doing it, you know, and then you, you really try to figure out how you can, you know, get better at it, really, you know, and I think that's a constant, a constant, you know, it's not like I think I mentioned earlier, we're not going to declare tomorrow, like, you know, what, I'm 100% got it all figured out, so that'll, that'll never happen, but you know, as long as we're moving in the right direction on a on a regular basis, I think that's, that's, that's still pretty rewarding. So, totally, totally okay. What's, I mean, what are some of the things that you guys are working on now? Yeah, share what you want, but like, what are some of the things that you guys are actively working on, for like a growth plan, or that, like, you're struggling with, like, how are you guys thinking through it? Yeah, so some of some of the stuff that we look at, you know, especially being small town rural, like staffing is difficult, you know, of course, so we're currently looking at how we can structure training programs better, so we can, you know, bring in, you know, that individual that's like, I really don't know anything, you know, but we can still bring them on staff and have, you know, there's still value in what they can provide, so we've talked about, well, we had a fire last fall. We lost our cabinet shop and our paint shop. Oh no, like a fire in the facility, fire, like lightning strike, building burnt down, and everything was everyone okay? Obviously everyone was good. It was about 10 minutes before we left for the day in the office here, and obviously it was a thunderstorm, and yeah, lightning hit pretty close, it tripped our, you know, our Wi-Fi phone system, everything went down, so I ran over to reset that in our another building, and I was running back over, and I was just pouring, you know, and so Matt and I were just kind of sitting, waiting for Wi-Fi to come back on, so we kind of close out our day, and I look out the window, and lo and behold, the cabinet shots on fire, and yeah, why everybody had been gone for, you know, hour and a half at that point, so but it was definitely like, oh, wow, this is happening. Dang, yeah. So, that was exciting. We had plans in place already to move our cabinet shop, thankfully. Like, we had literally the week before put down payments on cabinetry equipment, so it shortened the curve a little bit. It's. Yeah, still not fun. I don't recommend having a building fire. It's no at all. Yeah, I had mentioned earlier our secondary location in Land O' Lakes that had a shop that was unused that we could quickly like pivot and make paint shop. So, but part of the training, I mean, back to the training is so now we're rebuilding what used to be our cabinet shop and paint shop, and we're like, well, we have extra space now, we should use part of that for like a training area, and talking about like, well, most of the people in the trades are learning, they're hands-on learners, so now we have a space where we can do some hands-on learning instead of just like classroom on, I talked to a lot of contractors, Paul, and I don't, I haven't heard of anyone doing this in house. There are services where people, like, they can go out. There's a place in Denver, I can't remember the name of it, but it seems like a really cool spot, but it's effectively like a place where, like, contractors can play, and they can, like, construction, instruction, I think that's what it is, and I'll think of his name, I can't think of it, I think I know what you're talking about, but yeah, yes, anyways, yeah, but it's like that similar concept, right, it's like learning about our values and insulation and waterproofing and like all this stuff, right, I haven't heard of anyone doing that. That's fantastic. So, you and you said you employ 50 people. Yes. Yep. Okay. So, I mean, obviously you want to train people, but like, tell me, like, what's the vision there? It is literally having, like, a classroom where you can, you can take a carpentry labor and be like, okay, here's, here's how to frame a wall, like, and then you know, just the real basic, like we're not doing it out in the field, where they feel the pressure, somebody's staring at them, like, dude, that dude doesn't know anything, like, we can, we can have a, an individual that can take a couple of, you know, other other people and be like, or we've recently chatted about, like, you know, trying to put together, like, what are some of the really important things that we want to be, you know, taking care of first when we're, when we're ready, and it's the, you know, sometimes it's just basic things you're seeing out on site, like, okay, we gotta, we got a crew out there, and they're not crowning their studs, because I don't think anyone really told them, yeah, that they need to be doing that, and of course, you're not just gonna like bring them into a shop and be like, here's how to crown a star, but we talked about, like, okay. Well, that's that's an important piece. Let's, let's just, obviously, you know, mention something now. If you see it, say something, but it could be something as, like, well, let's not forget to mention that when we're, you know, training somebody that is coming in with no experience. So, and maybe the better question. Okay, so you mentioned, like, bringing in, like, you know, carpenters, and then teaching them other trades, other skills, right? Or, like, fundamentally, is there, like, a bigger vision to bring people in, almost similar to you, like zero construction understanding, but they are members of your community? Like, could you bring someone in with zero experience that wants to get into the trades and be like, "I know how to do it the Waldman Way, I haven't really thought about that, as far as bringing others in, but not a terrible idea, you know. I think there is interest, definitely. But yeah, I'll let you know when it's up and running. Reese, we can, you can come on out, we can, we can have you build a few, few things in the, in the shop, and let us know how it's working. I don't know. I think I'm gonna stay in my lane. I would love to go. I'll promote the hell out of it, because I think that's great. I think it's, I think it's an awesome idea. And were your land.. wait, Land O' Lake? I'm not familiar with what part of Wisconsin are you in? We're far northern Wisconsin, so Germain, yeah, yep, so isn't there isn't there a liqueur named Saint Germain? Yeah, there is. There is. Full disclosure, haven't tried it, but you know, I'm open to something like that. I haven't either. I haven't either. I feel like it's the name of a liquor that's used in like spritzes and stuff. I don't know, I don't ask my wife in Wisconsin, yeah. Well, I'm much more of a beer guy, anyways. So I didn't bring any with today, so disappointed there. Wisconsin doesn't, Wisconsin drink like more beer per capita than anywhere else in the world, or something crazy like that, at least the United States. Yeah, yeah, it's it's something else. Just a real brief story that doesn't relate to anything, except for Wisconsin and our issues. But I was on a different, like, community board, and one of the ladies there, she was talking about that she was out in Wyoming, and that, like, her daughter, her 11 year old daughter, like, was unloading the grocery cart, and there was, like, she grabbed a six pack of beer, 12 pack of beer, whatever, and put it on the checkout lane, and the cashier was like, "How dare you, like, you can't do that, like, it's a minor, minors can't, and the lady's like, "Are you serious? and the lady's like,"Well, yeah, you can't do. Then she's like, well, I'm from Wisconsin, we do it all the time. She's like, oh, never mind. Just like you guys are like, yeah, if I would have known you're from Wisconsin, that's totally acceptable behavior. I apologize for saying sorry. Sorry for ruining today. Yeah, no, no, I don't want to get in the way of this. I have seen what getting in front of a Wisconsinite and their beer ends up like, yeah, that's hilarious. Okay, well, cool. Paul, what else do you have for the audience? Find Contractors of America. We talked about, you know, finding and developing and following your why, right? But what's just like a closing comment form? Anything else that we haven't talked about that you want to leave off the table. Well, I mean, it is, it is definitely the.. I think just getting back to that, like, you know, there's a lot of lessons out there that can be learned. There are a lot of things that can make us better at what we're doing. It's just listening to that, and then not being afraid to take that leap, I mean, in all honesty, like, I know this isn't - we're not going to sidetrack on adaptive, and that, but adaptive was one of those things that was like, we got a call, and it was like my coworker Desi, she's like, "Hey, I think I think we need to at least take a look at this, and we were very set in our ways, right? Like, nope, did we cold call you? Yeah, and it was like it's great. So, yeah, but we were like QuickBooks Desktop. Well, how you doing your invoicing? Oh, it's a spreadsheet, because their estimates done on a spreadsheet, and then you know it just follows right through when I invoice. It's it's in the spreadsheet, and it's taking a stack of actual like tickets, and being like, I gotta go through, I gotta code them, I know what, what goes where, and it was like all in my head, and then we get a phone call, and it's like, oh man, this makes life so much easier, you know, and then the less time that I spend invoicing a client, you know, or the easier that process is now I'm able to delegate that, and now I'm able to get the information that I need without having to do the work. That's been a huge change for me, you know, and that's that's here within the last 18 months. So, you know, like I said, shortening the learning curve could have could have helped, could help. Sometimes you just need the badge of honor, though. Sometimes you need the battle scars. Yeah, yeah. And that's good to hear. That's good to hear that Adaptive was like helpful in that, you know, kind of like, you know, journey of finding that out and really putting it into practice. I literally, I did an episode with Brad Stokes over at Highspire, and that's like everyone, everyone wants to do the, you know, work on the business, not in the business, remove myself, not owner, operator, just owner, like all of these things, but that's really like what needs to drive the process of you removing yourself from the process, is like, what do you like, what you're not just gonna like stop working and go to like Mexico 52 weeks out of the year, and drink margaritas on the beach, like that's gonna get old after eight days, right? It's like you need, like, why do I want to get out of the owner operator seat? What is my why? And if my why is to have more time to like think and internalize and digest and make decisions for the vision of the business, I can't do that if I'm putting draw packages together until 2o'clock every Saturday, because I can't get it done during the week, and we need the cash flow to cover our AP. Like, you can have space to think if you're doing that stuff. Go ahead, that has definitely changed in the last 12 months, you know, where it has allowed myself a lot more time to work on the business versus in the business, because it was in the business day in and day out, and it was like, you know, the questions about the actual business were just more annoying at that time, because I had stuff to get done, like, yeah, don't bother me with that, I've got, I've got stuff to do, and now it is like, you know, you can do a little bit more strategic planning, you can plan out, like, well, this is what we want to do, we want to be able to train employees well? If you would have brought that up in the past, when I still had the HR hat on, and all the financials that I was dealing with, like that would have been like, yeah, that's a cute idea, but yeah, it's not going to get off dead center, you know. So now it's definitely, you know, we have a culture here of, we have ideas, we set out, like, okay, when can we set aside some time to actually structure that, so you're not just going to an employee, you know, project manager, like, well, we're going to do some training with employees, they'll be better, yeah, well, if you're not following through on it, they're just going to be like, yeah, I've heard a lot of promises before, so being able to take the time and show, like, no, we're actually doing this, and you know we're improving the business, you know, you definitely get more buy-in from the employees as well. So, totally, totally, I love it. Well, Paul, I appreciate you hopping on the old builders, budgets and beers, and sharing your, sharing your story, sharing your journey that came with wisdom. So, I'm excited to hear what the audience thinks, um. Can't wait to can't wait to keep working with you. If there's anything I can do, let me know. Yeah, absolutely awesome. All right, cool. Well, we'll, we'll chat soon. Paul sounds good, Reese. Thanks. Take care.